Overcoming Adversity: Zoe Lea on Thrillers, Self-Doubt, and Social Media

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In this episode of The Write Place Podcast, Wayne Kelly sits down with psychological thriller author and social media expert Zoe Lea to discuss the twists and turns of her writing journey. From the book that saved her life to the struggles of self-doubt and navigating the complexities of her craft, Zoe shares raw and inspiring insights into the life of an author.

They delve into Zoe's latest novel, Closer Than She Thinks, exploring the vulnerability at the heart of psychological thrillers and what keeps readers on the edge of their seats. In the new "Their Darkest Hour" segment, Zoe opens up about overcoming personal challenges and finding strength in a supportive writing community.

Wayne and Zoe also tackle the role of social media for authors, demystifying how to showcase your work authentically and connect with readers without losing your mind. Plus, the dreaded topic of A.I. makes an appearance.

Zoe Lea is a British author renowned for her psychological thrillers that delve into complex human relationships and suspenseful narratives. She lives in the Lake District with her family and has had all kinds of career roles including being a teacher, photographer, and freelance journalist. In addition to her writing career, Zoe is a content strategist, helping creatives to showcase their work and build their writing communities.

Her latest novel, Closer Than She Thinks, is out now on Kindle and lands in June on Paperback, but she also has 2 other books you should definitely go and check out.

Find all Zoe's links on her website here.

Whether you're a seasoned writer or just starting out, this episode offers invaluable advice, inspiration, and a reminder that you're not alone in your creative struggles. Tune in and take your writing to the next level.

SHOW LINKS:

- Get 40% Discount on Wayne's online course - How To Successfully Self-Publish Course (use code 'WP40'

- The Write Place YouTube Channel - Like and Subscribe!

YouTube Clip from Novel Marketing on Publishing Trends

Email your feedback to wayne(at)waynekellywrites.com

Transcript

WAYNE: Hello and welcome. You're in the right place with me, Wayne Kelley, bringing you author interviews, writing, inspiration and advice since 2014. It's episode 235, and today's guest is psychological thriller writer and social media expert Zoe Li. We talk about Zoe's path to publication, the book that saved her life,
and also how she overcame adversity, in a new feature called Their Darkest Hour. Zoe also has tips on how authors should be using social media, and the dreaded subject of A.I. also came up.

Before we get to that, a very quick update from me. I've just received my first batch of author copies of The Call Back, my thriller that's officially released on January the 29th.

I'm really pleased with the paperback, and I can't wait to get the book out into the world and see how it lands with fans of the first book in the series Safe Hands. I've also been adding more writer advice videos on the right Place YouTube channel, including short videos on how to slay self-doubt, beating writer's block and getting into the right mindset for a productive 2025 and beyond. I'd love to hear your thoughts on those, but also on what you'd like me to cover in future videos as I plan this year's content. And it would really help if you could also like and subscribe to help me grow the channel and add even more free advice, tips and inspiration on there.

Speaking of YouTube, I was sent a really interesting video by long time listener Jim Snell. Thanks, Jim, who sent me a link to a video by a channel called Novel Marketing. I'll put the link in the show notes so you can watch it for yourself. But there are some shocking stats in the opening few minutes of the video.

The theme of the video is publishing trends for this year, and the presenter talks about a court hearing last year in which some of the big publishers had to reveal some of their inner working and results, which obviously they don't like to do. And one amazing stat that emerged was that on average, many first time traditionally published authors are only selling around 12 or 13 copies.

Yep, you heard that right. Not 12 or 1300 or thousand, but 12 or 13 individual copies with a big traditional publisher. And it also revealed that on average, publishers are only spending around 2% of their profits on marketing, which is an outrageously low figure. But also, it kind of backs up why so few copies are being sold. And off the back of these stats, the presenter suggests one emerging trend he thinks will grow in 2025 is more authors will shun traditional publishing in favor of doing it themselves. And it's also likely to mean that the stigma that sometimes associated with self-publishing is set to continue to fall away because writers are just going to decide to take control and do it for themselves. It's definitely reinforced by murmurings I've heard from many traditional published authors who are unhappy with the amount of time it takes to get their books out.

The lack of say they have on the final product and the small amounts of money that are often being paid for their work for the amount of time that they put in. Maybe you even maybe you are one of these authors listening right now, but I appreciate it isn't always easy to say these things publicly, but I've definitely seen an uptick in interest in my online course - How to Successfully Self-Publish your book, Indie Publishing for Beginners. And because I've become so passionate about indie publishing myself, have become a bit of an evangelist when it comes to indie publishing. But I am keen to convert as many talented writers as possible to this way of doing it. I'm so passionate, in fact, that I'm currently extending my Listnr exclusive offer of a 40% discount on the course.

That's just for you guys and the link and the info is in the show notes. So if you're interested, but maybe you're scared of some of the technical stuff or you haven't got a clue how it works, do check it out. It is aimed at beginners and just let me know what you think. That said, I know that we don't all have the finances to pay for courses and all the rest of it, so I will still keep adding that free content to YouTube. I'll obviously continue to do the regular podcast interviews, which are always going to be free. And obviously if you want another freebie, I've created a 15 page Write or Die writers Survival kit for you to download. When you sign up to the free monthly Write or Die newsletter where I'll be giving you more writing tips, advice and inspiration there as well. And again, I've put the link for that in the show notes. As I say, it's totally free, so go and grab it. So I've got all of that on and I'm continuing to work on book three because there's no rest for the wicked. We talk about it today in Zoe's chat as well. We're always onto the next thing because we have to be, and that's currently still in there plotting an idea stage, but it's kind of keeping me up at night.

It's that kind of stage that I'm in the minute, but I'll keep you posted on that. So that's me. But what about you? How are things with your writing? What would you like me to cover on here? And the right place? YouTube channel, for example,

Maybe like Jim today, you've got an interesting link or article you want to share with me. Well, if you have, then send it right along, because I'd definitely love to hear all about it. And you can do that by Drop me a line Wayne at Wayne Kelly writes dot com. It's great to hear what you're doing and what you're up to and what you're interested in at the minute. And I do always reply. So make sure you drop me an email. Right? Let's crack on and get to today's interview with Zoe Leigh. Zoe is a British author renowned for her psychological thrillers that delve into complex human relationship and suspenseful narratives.
She lives in the Lake District with her family and has had all kinds of career roles, including being a teacher, photographer and freelance journalist. In addition to her writing career, Zoe is also a content strategist, helping creatives and businesses to showcase their work and build their writing community. Is her latest novel, Closer than she thinks is out now on Kindle, but it lands on paperback in June, and she's also got two of the books you should definitely go and check out. So enjoy the chat and I'll pop back at the end to wrap things up.

Okay, Zoe, thanks a million for joining me on the right place.

You're in The Write Place. So why don't you start off just by telling us where you are and how things are going in your writing world at the minute. We post post-Christmas as we record this. So how did that go? Did you do lots of entertaining? Were you having to act? Well, eating and drinking as well? That's yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. Excited for Alien. Well why don't the sinners you've mentioned closer than she thinks. Why don't you mention it? It's mention it. Why don't you tell us about it. So what is it about? Yeah. that's great.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:11:08:03 - 00:12:43:06
ZOE: And what a nice cover it is as well. Yeah, it's great. It pops the net. Yeah. What's it about? Yeah. Now you don't want to spoil it. Yeah. So psychological thriller. So there's lots of dark themes going on there where do you remember kind of what sparked the initial idea? I know it was probably a while ago that you wrote it now, but where did it sort of come from?
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:12:43:08 - 00:14:33:10
WAYNE: Yeah, yeah, it just is just disclaimer there. Yeah, yeah. Psychological thriller, as you say. That's an interesting point about vulnerability. I heard anybody say that before, but you're right, that is kind of a I suppose that's a key element of psychological thriller, isn't it, That kind of having that character, this maybe got some kind of vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:14:33:12 - 00:15:26:14
ZOE: And what attracted you to psychological thrillers in the first place? Why is it that you like writing psychological thrillers? Do you think? Yeah, they're really hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an easy mistake to make. It's an easy mistake to make, but I think yeah, I think that's where I think that I was always similar with crime, to be honest.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:15:26:16 - 00:15:41:20
WAYNE: For ages I didn't, I didn't write crime. I tried to I was trying to write all sorts of things that I'm sort of still kind of interested in, like speculative fiction and different bits and pieces. But I thought, Yeah, but what do you read the most of What do you keep coming back to? And it was crime like all the time.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:15:41:20 - 00:16:27:04
ZOE: And I was like, Well, maybe that's what you should write. I mean, it's so obvious. It doesn't, it doesn't. I don't know. Like you say, I don't think it's always obvious to is one way sort of outside of the outside of the process. Sometimes. No, I Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I think that's where it comes from.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:16:27:10 - 00:16:46:05
WAYNE: I've talked about it before and here, but I think the thing that we can it's really easy to fall into when you read a lot and you want to write is you look at we forget that the book, when we're reading a book that is like the finished article that's been worked on for months or years or however long they've spent on it.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:16:46:05 - 00:17:09:14
ZOE: And not only that, there's usually a team of people, there's usually an editor and all the rest of it that's looked at it and loads of feedback and blah, blah, blah. And we sometimes forget that. I think you think you write, I think we think you go. The person went from a standing start to that, you know, they just went that was the first draft and it's now it's as we know from writing, it's whatever God knows how many.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:17:09:16 - 00:17:40:00
WAYNE: Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah. It, it, it definitely is. Yeah. And I think, I mean I think the other thing that people forget I posted this on social media recently, but I don't think people realize how many times writers have to read their own books, let alone write them. I think that's the other thing because I had to do I've just, you know, a few weeks ago I had to do my final read through after my copy edit, and it was the same thing.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:17:40:02 - 00:17:57:18
ZOE: My my God, I'm so sick of this book. Now I've read it. So I mean, I don't, I don't read. I can I can count the books that I've read more than once. Like on one hand there's probably be like On Writing by Stephen King. I probably read that like two or three times because I love it and it inspires me.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:17:57:18 - 00:18:18:21
WAYNE: But I can't think of many books I've read more than once apart from my own. I've got to read over and over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And it's almost like that's one of the traps you can fall into because it's just seems so familiar and it's difficult to kind of read it as a objectively.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:18:18:21 - 00:18:41:18
ZOE: And then sometimes. So with writing so close, then she thinks that she is third novel isn't is that right? So tell me a little bit about the writing of it in terms of was is your process on this first on that third by now I know you write, you know, you're hopefully about to finish your fourth one as well, but was your process on that third book any different to when you wrote the first book?
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:18:41:18 - 00:19:36:05
WAYNE: Have you found that your process has changed at all along the way, or is it more you've just got into the groove? Talk me through that. Yeah, but have you have you learned have you do you think you've learned? I mean, obviously that's a stupid question. Obviously you've learned to full on or every time we write a book we learn something.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:19:36:07 - 00:19:59:08
ZOE: But I mean, are you as you say, you still suffer from the self-doubt thing, which I think every writer does when they first sit down, You think, Can I do this again? I can't believe I've done it more than once or whatever, or even once. But. But are there any things that you think you've learned along the way or you think, okay, that didn't work so well in that, you know, I'm talking about the actual writing of it.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:19:59:08 - 00:21:54:13
WAYNE: You know, that didn't doing that for me was a nightmare. So I'm going to try, even if it's I'm going to try to do it differently this time. I know that doesn't always work out like that. I know from bitter experience. Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah. Like a whole new book, almost. Yeah, I know. I can totally relate.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:21:54:13 - 00:22:15:03
ZOE: So because I'm the same, it's like the book that I've. I've got that's just about to come out. It was an absolute nightmare to write and I, and I did exactly what you've just been talking about, which was I just kept going off on these massive tangents. Like, I mean, I think like something between 40 and 50,000 words that are not in the book.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:22:15:03 - 00:22:36:01
WAYNE: Like as in I don't just mean I've redrafted. I mean they're nothing to do with like this story in its current form. They're just completely different characters, different locations. Part of it was going off in a completely different direction and I was trying to kind of work out why that. And I'm like, Yeah, I was like, I don't I can't I just cannot do a like a really, really detailed outline.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:22:36:01 - 00:22:55:24
ZOE: It's just not me. But the thing I'm going to try as I start this next, I'm about to start. This next one is I'm going to write the first 10,000 up to maximum is my plan. I'm going to come up with it. I've got the idea and I'm going to try and write, work out which characters again I'm going to be focusing on for the story.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:22:55:24 - 00:23:16:02
WAYNE: Then I'm going to stop and then I'm going to decide definitively what the end of the book is, because that's that's the issue for me is I kind of go because I'm like you. It's like, I like, what? Let's just see where the story goes and let's just do it. Let's do it. And I've got this vague thing in my mind and then something like this sort of happen.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:23:16:04 - 00:23:34:18
ZOE: But if you're not for me, if I'm not absolutely super 100% clear on pretty much how I'm going to resolve that, because what we did, you're probably the same as me. What I find that I'm doing is it's easy to come up with another problem. Like as in, now make another problem for the protagonist. And now another little twist.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:23:34:18 - 00:23:54:23
WAYNE: And now another little thing that's easy to do, but at some point you are going to have to get them out of it or, you know, resolve it somehow. And if you I think if you know what the end is, you can then go back and pull all those twists in and you can make it nice and twisty and but knowing that as long as I can get to that thing at the end.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:23:55:00 - 00:24:19:18
ZOE: And so that's my plan. But let's but let's see, because I can't I can't go I can't go from a blank page to a completely outline book. I just can't because the thing that I find is that I don't know the characters. I mean, I'm writing a series, so I do know their sort of main character, but like this book that I've just written, the sort of main storyline was a minor character of the first book.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:24:19:22 - 00:24:41:10
WAYNE: He wasn't in it that much. So I kind of had to work out who he was and what it was about. I realize now this is retrospective Lady. I'm realizing this and that's why I'm going off in all these, you know, different this like it's not his story and it's like, well, it is his story. That's why you need to just focus on if that's the book, then that's the story that you need to tell.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:24:41:10 - 00:25:15:24
ZOE: So Exactly. That's exactly it. That is exactly it. Yeah. So like I say, you know, you come on, like in a year's time and I'll say, Yeah, you know, that that was complete and utter rubbish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody told me and whoever it was, they're an absolute moron because it's been nothing but trouble. It's been nothing but trouble.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:25:16:01 - 00:26:32:13
WAYNE: Yeah. So why don't we just take a bit of a step back? So why don't you tell me how you. What she kind of earliest memories of writing. How did you come to writing in the first place? A day? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to get O'Neill's. You? Yeah, Yeah. Wow. Well, you've been paid for your writing at such a young age as well.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:26:32:13 - 00:27:31:23
ZOE: That's brilliant. I Yeah, And that I've read that day ever since. Yeah. Yeah. And tell us about that first book that you tried to write. Might not been the first one that got published because it's not always with people. Often it's not. So what? Well, well, it sounds like it was probably. Why actually, based on what you said earlier.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:27:31:23 - 00:28:38:12
WAYNE: Yeah. Still time? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And write more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. right.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:28:38:12 - 00:28:49:17
ZOE: It's like it's my life, my life, and it's against the.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:28:49:17 - 00:30:27:11
WAYNE: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just something you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Got you started. And how did that. Do you remember how it felt when you actually got that call from when you first got your agent?
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:30:27:11 - 00:31:04:15
ZOE: Was the kind of, I guess, the first kind of step towards it And then obviously eventually when it actually got played, when he got picked up. Yeah. Yeah. You get used to it. Yeah. It's still, there's still that you still must get a kick out of actually holding when the physical thing comes through though. And you get it and you hold it in your hand.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:31:04:15 - 00:31:59:24
WAYNE: So it's not that still feels pretty special, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Yeah, it definitely does. I do think, I think you're right. I think there's a real sense of achievement. But, but, but I think the problem is we never really linger on it long enough to really kind of feel it much quick because especially I think when you write a book as well, because I think especially if you're on a deadline or you're doing something else, it's like the first time you finish a first draft, like as in you literally get to the end of the story and you type the end and you think, Right, I've got something.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:31:59:24 - 00:32:12:18
ZOE: I've like got a whole story, I've got a whole book that's amazing. But then when you do it the next time and it's to a deadline and you've got a time that you want to get the book out and everything else, it's almost like, right? It's almost like a tick. It's like, Right, I've done that and I'll get it.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:32:12:18 - 00:32:26:22
WAYNE: Like the next thing we have to do and we have to edit it. So I'm just going to go back to that and then obviously there's always something. There's like then there's a copy edit and you know, it's a structure, then there's a copy and then there's a and then it's out and then you're thinking, but the next one I need to get on the next one.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:32:26:24 - 00:32:44:20
ZOE: And I think the goalposts for me anyway, and I think for a lot of people that I speak to, it's like we're always doing it. So we move the goalposts. It's like we go, All I want is to get a book out into the world that's literally do that. I can die happy, I'll be absolutely fine. But you lie because you're going to die.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:32:44:22 - 00:33:01:00
WAYNE: And then And then when it comes and then when it comes out, it's like it's not sold enough or I didn't get Yeah. Didn't get the reviews I wanted or whatever is. but maybe that's but maybe that's, maybe that's what drives us to keep trying to get better because I don't, I think that's the thing for me.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:33:01:00 - 00:33:32:20
ZOE: I think most people that are good at what they do, I do think I mean, obviously there's healthy amounts of it as well. You can't you can't just I think if you're just completely paralyzed by self-doubt and you just think everything you do is absolutely terrible. But I do think it sort of drives you to try to want to make the next thing that you do a bit better or you do something slightly different or whatever.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:33:32:22 - 00:33:54:04
WAYNE: Yeah, it's everything and you're always comparing as well. Yeah, but I think that's the I think with every like with every single thing, it's like when someone gets I know, I know people, they've got an agent and they're like, you know, off air or whatever. They're like, Yeah, but I want to die. So you, so-and-so's got, I wish I wish that there agent or it's like, for God's sake, you've got an agent.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:33:54:04 - 00:34:16:06
ZOE: But that's just how it's like people. Yeah. So it's I really wanted to be with X publisher, but I'm doing it with this publisher and it's like just, you know, be satisfied. So, one of the a new thing that I'm starting on the podcast, another segment which I am springing this on you, so you might not have it, you might not have something to mind maybe, but it's, I'm calling it
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:34:16:06 - 00:34:21:12
WAYNE: Their darkest hour. I.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:34:21:12 - 00:34:39:03
ZOE: And the idea is during your whole writing career, or it might have been on a specific but whatever comes to mind, really What so one of you sort of fake what's kind of the biggest kind of challenge that you've faced along the way? And it might have been that you got stuck on something forever, or it might be that you completely lost faith in what you do.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:34:39:03 - 00:37:00:04
WAYNE: I don't know. But if I said that to you, what's the first thing that comes to mind? And how did you overcome it? How did you overcome that kind of challenge or adversity? Yes, that's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you think you won't get found out as well? Yeah. That's brilliant. That's brilliant.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:37:00:06 - 00:37:10:16
ZOE: So you kind of main takeaway from that was, as you say, have try and build up this network, this support network around you and get to know the writers and like minded people
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:37:10:16 - 00:37:18:12
WAYNE: because non non writers don't really understand. I think that's half the problem. I don't know whether you find that with your other half or whatever or the family members is.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:37:18:14 - 00:38:15:22
ZOE: Sometimes if you're a bit down on, you're a bit grumpy or whatever and they ask you what it is and you say, it's because I can't sort this plot problem out. Or and they look at you like you're from Mars or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, yeah. They understand. Yeah. Well, you kind of mentioned that you talked about, you know, Facebooks groups, groups and different best pieces.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:38:15:22 - 00:39:23:12
WAYNE: So the other thing you do, as well as writing your books, you are you help people, you help with the writers. And I know you help build businesses as well, get their their books out into the world and get themselves in their brand and everything. So tell us a little bit about that. Is that okay?
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:39:23:14 - 00:40:17:16
ZOE: Yeah, I know. It's massive. Yeah, that's. That's good, though. Yeah. But I think you're right, though. I think so many people hate all that side of things in having to talk about themselves and their book and everything else. What kind of is some of the main concerns that you see, particularly when you get people that you might I'm guessing you meet people that when you first meet them, they haven't got even got any kind of social media presence or maybe they've got one thing that they've not posted on for donkey's years or whatever.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:40:17:18 - 00:40:51:02
WAYNE: Talk us through some of the things that you tend to see in the early sort of steps in the way that they can sort of start to change their mindset about it.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:40:51:04 - 00:41:05:13
ZOE: Yeah.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:41:05:13 - 00:41:34:13
WAYNE: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:41:34:13 - 00:42:41:10
ZOE: yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree. I've often said that it's this weird, this weird split ego that we've got. Like, on the one hand, it's, like, absolutely terrifying when you work out there, but then on the other hand, you spent all that time and as you say, you want loads of people to read it.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:42:41:10 - 00:42:58:01
WAYNE: So it's really it's a really weird thing that's going on. And I think you're right about the social media. I think the thing's been real. I always talk about people being authentic just in general, whatever that means, like whatever that is for you. Like you just like, try to be or at least a version of yourself. I know.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:42:58:05 - 00:43:15:24
ZOE: Like you say, not everybody wants to give everything away and be completely open online. I understand that. But I mean, I've had similar things. When you meet someone that's you know, naturally they might be really, really shy and they don't think they can get up and talk to anybody or tell anybody about the book. But it's almost like a bit like we do when we write.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:43:15:24 - 00:43:43:22
ZOE: And I think it's like taking on a role almost is like saying, okay, I'm going to be Zoe the successful confident, although that's really happy to go out and talk about my work or whatever. I think it's kind of like that, like you would if you're writing a character in your book. You know, we're not all like our characters, but we kind of have to pretend we are, don't we, for tens of thousands of words?
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:43:43:24 - 00:44:47:20
WAYNE: No, no, no, no. I think particularly with traditional publishing as well, I think people have got this idea that if you with a traditional publisher, that they're going to do everything for you. Like you just you just talked about it there. You know, you had you had you have this and then there's a blog. A blog, too, or maybe or whatever.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:44:47:22 - 00:45:08:03
ZOE: And then it's like, okay, go and sell your book. It's like it's over to you. I know. Might not been like that in years gone by, but that's kind of how it is now, unless you are if you signed for obviously a massive advance and they're going to invest in you and they're going to Yeah, they're going to they're going to put you on everything they possibly can and they're going to get you radio slots and TV slots and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:45:08:07 - 00:45:45:10
WAYNE: But for most normal people that are not that, it's, you know, you're expected to do the lion's share of it yourself, aren't you, And put yourself out. It's kind of sort of sort of it's a lot of the time it's kind of an unsaid kind of agreement. I know. I know. I know. I'm a writer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:45:45:12 - 00:46:00:24
ZOE: But you want to get you want to get you you get your word out there. So kind of in your your creative journey in life through all you obviously, you've mentioned you had all the jobs in different bits and pieces as well. What's been the best piece of sort of creative advice that you've picked up along the way?
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:46:00:24 - 00:46:29:05
WAYNE: And I know you've probably had loads, but like what's going to comes to mind if I say that could be write in or it could be creativity, something that's helped you along the way you think something that you kind of return back to or you think, yeah, that's a good way to approach it. Whatever. That's all right.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:46:29:07 - 00:46:40:19
ZOE: yeah,
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:46:40:19 - 00:46:45:03
WAYNE: Interesting. The idea of your taste and your, your instinct. Is that what you mean.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:46:45:03 - 00:47:17:11
ZOE: I think. No, that's an asset. I think that's a great, a great point.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:47:17:11 - 00:47:33:00
WAYNE: And I think it's that the kind of thing that you kind of have to do as well as you go along. Once you start to learn more about the craft and everything else is being able to take something that you like and then kind of go, Why do I like it? Sort of what? What is what is this person doing that's so good at what, you know?
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:47:33:00 - 00:47:51:09
ZOE: Is it the character or is it just because is the pace of it, is it and not write down to like the real the nuts and bolts of it? Sometimes like, yeah, these really short chapters or whatever it is that the person's doing I think is thinking like that. Whereas the people that don't write or I mean, it's similar for me with what I do for a day job with the TV in the video.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:47:51:09 - 00:48:08:23
WAYNE: Sometimes, sometimes it's hard to not watch something and sort of see the nuts and bolts of it. Okay, they've done it like this and they're done. Sometimes you just want to watch something and if something's really good, you do. You do forget all that stuff. A bit like a book. Sometimes, if it's really good, you just ignore all that and you just get sucked into the story.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:48:09:02 - 00:48:24:09
ZOE: But I think it's been able to go back to something and think, okay, well, what is this person doing and how can I kind of have what can I learn? Not I don't mean rip it off, but I mean, what what other things can I introduce to the way that I do things that can give me the same the same feeling?
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:48:24:09 - 00:49:58:06
WAYNE: I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So can you talk much about what you're actually working on now or will it jinx it? And you don't want to spoil anything if that's true. Is this the one that started off where they got abducted by aliens at the beginning and then. Yeah, right. Sounds great. Sounds really good. That's a good hook.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:49:58:08 - 00:50:27:15
ZOE: Yes, a good hook. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's great, though. good luck with it. So. Yeah, so there'll be people out there that are maybe just starting their writing journey and maybe they're interested in specifically and write in psychological threads because it is like a really, really massively popular genre. What sort of have you got any kind of tips or anybody thinking about actually writing a psychological thriller?
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:50:27:20 - 00:50:57:12
WAYNE: What other kind of key elements do you think and what should they sort of think about when they're coming up with the story and trying to work out whether it's got legs,
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:50:57:12 - 00:52:09:22
ZOE: some kind of journey? Yeah, I can't wait to get all the labs off, complain about like a few months down the line. I tried that. What it absolutely ludicrous.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:52:09:22 - 00:52:53:05
WAYNE: I did. Yeah, what a preposterous idea. So so as we kind of wrap things up, just remind people where they can find the book, where they can find out more about you. And also, we've talked a lot about social media. So tell people where they can find you on social media as well. Brilliant. Well, I'll put all of that stuff in the show notes, but for now, thanks for coming on the right place.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:52:53:05 - 00:52:59:02
ZOE: So it's been such fun talking to you.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:53:02:08 - 00:53:21:14
WAYNE: There you go. Thanks again to Zoe. Enough for all of our links in the show notes. Don't forget also to download your Free Writers Survival kit and have a look at my new self-publishing for Beginners course to again the links in the show notes with everything else. But other than that, that's it for this week. Other than me reminding you to email Wayne at Wayne Kelly.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: 00:53:21:14 - 00:53:47:06
ZOE: REITs dot com to tell me what you want to see in future shows and anything else you want to mention. Obviously don't forget to subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, Overcast, YouTube and everywhere else. And that way you can have all this content downloaded automatically when it arrives. And also remember to leave me a nice rating and review on whichever platform you listen to or watch the show on because it does help other people find it and keep recommending it to your pals.
WAYNE: 
ZOE: 00:53:47:06 - 00:53:54:17
WAYNE: That would be brilliant. So you've been in the right place now go. Right. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
ZOE: 
WAYNE: